Singers and Listeners and Rereaders unite! Or… something like that. Welcome back to the Oathbringer reread, as we finish the year with the final interlude before Part Three begins. We’ve got a lot of secrets to learn along with Venli, though she’s probably more upset by them than we are.
Reminder: We’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread, and this week we have a bunch of them. There’s likely to be some Cosmere spoilage as well; possibly in the reread, and almost certainly in the comments. In any case, if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Venli
WHERE: Unknown; possibly near the Shattered Plains
WHEN: 1174.1.7.4 (about the time Moash was pulling the sledge and Shallan was working with her soldiers to train them as spies)
Venli and several of the remaining Listeners await the coming Everstorm, promised by Ulim that it will bring them more power. But when it passes, Venli realizes that they had been misled. Her friends are gone, their souls destroyed and their bodies claimed by the ancient Listener gods. She alone remains, destined for some greater purpose by Odium. In the aftermath of her grief, a strange spren appears, which Venli hides, certain that the creatures residing within the bodies of her friends will destroy it.
The Singing Storm
Title: This One Is Mine
YES, the voice said. CHOOSE ANOTHER. THIS ONE IS MINE.
Heralds: Battar (The Counselor; Wise/Careful; Elsecallers) and Kalak (The Maker; Resolute/Builder; Willshapers)
AA: Well, what an interesting combination of Heralds for Venli’s chapter. On a guess, both are foreshadowing what is to come, more than representing what we see here. In this chapter, they call Ulim “The Envoy”—but that is essentially the role Venli will take on when they meet up with the gatherings of freed parshmen. I may be in error to connect this role with Battar as “Counselor,” but it makes sense to me. Venli won’t really get to give counsel to the Fused—and they’re either too cracked or too arrogant to listen anyway—but as Odium’s personal representative, she is the one who gives counsel to her people. (Such as it is, anyway.)
Kalak, I’m almost positive, is here to represent the order of Willshapers—the order that will be formed by bonding with a spren of Timbre’s kind. Here, we only see her as a frightened little ball of light, but we’ll certainly see more of her!
Icon: The Singer, meaning that this chapter is part of Venli’s novella.
Stories & Songs
Time to add to our running tally of Rhythms!
Listener Rhythms: Curiosity, Awe, Peace, Pleading, Skepticism, Appreciation, Anxiety, Consolation, Praise, Reprimand, Mourning, Lost, Longing.
Voidbringers Rhythms: Rhythm of the Terrors, Craving, Command, Fury, Satisfaction, Derision, Spite
To the Voidbringer list, this week we add Abashment, Destruction, and Agony.
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Oathbringer
AP: This chapter seems to continue the theme of heightened or extreme emotions being the Void rhythms. Reprimand becomes Abashment. Longing becomes Craving. I don’t know if Destruction has an exact analog, perhaps Consolation, Mourning, or Loss? This fits if Odium is directly influencing and twisting the Listener rhythms.
AA: I agree. More on this below!
Let me say up front here, this week’s discussion doesn’t fit readily into the standard recurring units we normally use. We’re going to just ignore most of those, since they don’t apply, and put the bulk of the discussion right here. We’re dealing with a few Listener concepts, but mostly we’re learning about the Fused.
This was war, and Venli among its vanguard. She had discovered the first Voidspren. She had discovered stormform. She had redeemed her people. She was blessed.
AA: Gotta say, that didn’t work out quite like she’d planned. Turns out her ancestors don’t see her as any kind of hero, vanguard, or leader. She’s just another tool for them.
Nine of them had been selected from among the two thousand listener survivors, Venli included. Demid stood beside her with a wide grin on his face. He loved to learn new things, and the storm was another adventure. They’d been promised something great.
AA: Here’s the introduction to The Fate of the Listeners. (Also, the details on some things that have come up in the comments recently, so there’s that too.) There were about 2,000 listeners left after the Battle of Narak. We don’t know exactly where they are, though I assume this is the group Sanderson was referring to that made it out of the Shattered Plains “to some floodplains on the other side.” These nine seem to be the first group drawn from the listeners for their “special purpose,” since Venli thinks of herself as the first. It’s clearly not the first bunch to be host bodies for the Fused, since Kaladin saw some at Revolar a couple of weeks earlier than this. Those must have taken bodies from the freed parshmen.
L: These are described as “grand of the Fused,” so some sort of leaders.
AP: It’s interesting to note that these seem to be a particular set of Fused. They are the leaders, as Lyndsey said, but it also indicates that not all the Parsh people eventually get reincarnated. I believe that it’s the specific set that made a deal with Odium thousands of years ago that keep coming back. We have no indication that Demid’s soul is retrievable. Ulim certainly doesn’t think so.
AA: I hadn’t quite connected that these few were the head honchos, so to speak, but it makes sense. It’s notable that they chose to take bodies from those who had not been deprived of the ability to change forms; I wonder if that makes it easier or harder for them to take over. But I believe Aubree is correct; it’s only the ones who made the deal with Odium who returned with every Desolation—and now, with every Everstorm. Those who are born in later eons are either bodies for those who return, or cannon fodder.
“Great power,” Ulim said. “You’ve been chosen. You’re special. But you must embrace this. Welcome it. You have to want it, or the powers will not be able to take a place in your gemhearts.”
AA: Deceitful little wretch. “You’re special!”—so special that we’re going to get rid of you and just commandeer your body. But since obviously you wouldn’t go for that, we’re just going to psych you into the correct mental state to kick you out.
L: They were expected to make martyrs of themselves, but without being given the choice to sacrifice themselves. That’s not sacrifice—it’s straight up murder.
AP: Agreed that it’s definitely murder. I expect that future Venli will be instrumental in leading her people away from the Fused/Odium relationship, since she has first hand knowledge of the process now.
L: The ones that are still alive, anyway. :(
A pressure enveloped her, pushing at her mind, her soul. Let Me In.
With difficulty, she opened herself up to this force. This was just like adopting a new form, right?
AA: Umm… not so much, no.
WHAT IS THIS?
It was a warm voice. An ancient, paternal voice, kindly and enveloping.
“Please,” Venli said, gasping in breaths of smoky air. “Please.”
YES, the voice said. CHOOSE ANOTHER. THIS ONE IS MINE.
AA: I don’t remember what I thought the first time I read this, but after all the interactions with Odium throughout the book, this is obviously him. Which… yikes. Possibly better than being forcibly evicted from your body, but becoming a direct tool of Odium doesn’t sound good.
AP: So, uh, I took it a totally different way! I thought it was the voice of whatever spren did enter and give her a new form. But Odium makes more sense, and is way more menacing. Nice Odium totally throws off my danger senses.
AA: Nice Odium is, if anything, worse than the nasty version. He makes my skin crawl. (Incidentally, I went back and looked at the beta discussion. Apparently, we had a bit of a debate; the fact that there were nine listeners in the group made a few people assume that these were to be bodies for the Unmade. By the end of the chapter, it became more obvious… but we still don’t know much about Venli’s spren/form.)
The force that had been pushing against her retreated, and the pain stopped. Something else—something smaller, less domineering—took its place. She accepted this spren gladly, then whimpered in relief, attuned to Agony.
AA: Now the burning question is, what is this spren? It’s something that gives her a form of power, because it still attunes the Void rhythms rather than the ones the listeners heard. Something, she observes, similar to nimbleform; later it will be called envoyform. We’ll learn a little more about it in future Interludes, but I still want to know more about the spren itself.
L: Same. Is this the only envoy-spren? Or are there more, waiting in the wings?
AP: I also wonder what makes her different and a good candidate for Odium’s direct influence? He is probably aware that she was working to return the Fused, but her reaction to the process is to be understandably horrified.
L: Maybe it has something to do with her personality? Or the fact that he can sense that she’s drawing her own spren… Perhaps not consciously on his part, but maybe he can sense that nascent bond forming and plans to use it against our heroes in some way…
AA: I wondered about that too. There doesn’t seem to be an obvious reason for him to claim this particular one, and I don’t remember that we ever learn that reason. But there must be one.
He spoke again in that strange language, and his next words seemed to blur in her mind, somehow shifting until she understood them.
AA: Again we have illumination from later in the book. This sounds suspiciously like Dalinar’s use of Spiritual Adhesion to be able to speak and understand other languages. In wider Cosmere terms, it seems to be Connection, as it’s explained in The Bands of Mourning.
L: So the Voidspren bonds are mirroring the Radiant ones, then? If envoyform is analogous to Bondsmiths in terms of power, maybe it makes sense that there would be far fewer of them.
AA: They can’t be perfectly analogous, but I agree—the envoyform seems very similar in function to the Bondsmiths.
They stood so tall, so haughty, and their mannerisms—all wrong.
AA: And this is where it becomes clear…
Each new form changed a listener, down to their ways of thinking, even their temperament. Despite that, you were always you. Even stormform hadn’t changed her into someone else. Perhaps… she had become less empathetic, more aggressive. But she’d still been herself.
AA: She hadn’t been a very nice person, apparently, because Eshonai noticed it too—even stormform didn’t change Venli all that much from what she’d been like in nimbleform. I find it odd to look back at this Venli from the vantage of having finished the book; I have a lot of hope for end-of-the-book Venli. This Venli makes me want to say she deserves what she gets. Except… even if the rest of the group were every bit as bad as her, I can’t think anyone deserves this fate:
“He has passed into the blindness beyond,” Demid said. “Unlike the witless Voidspren you bonded—which resides in your gemheart—my soul cannot share its dwelling. Nothing, not Regrowth or act of Odium, can restore him now.”
AA: Despite any level of sympathy I may have for the original situation that caused these ancestors to take such drastic measures, this puts them solidly in the Villain category for me. They isolate a small group of people, tell them how wonderful they are, get them in an open, receptive mindset, and then just boot out their souls and take their bodies. That’s Evil.
L: Undeniably so. I have to wonder if they were always like this? This next part:
Two still had trouble moving. They lurched, stumbled, fell to their knees. A different two wore smiles, twisted and wrong.
The listener gods were not completely sane.
AA: Ya think?
L: Were they once sane and good “people”? Is it just the insanity that’s removed their empathy and driven them to evil, or have they always been willing to sacrifice whatever they must to advance their goals?
AP: I think that they originally made a pact with Odium, for whatever reasons—desperation, power, whatever—and that continued influence has made them less empathetic over time. This is the result of the long term giving of their “passion” over to Odium. I think the insanity is separate, and a function of time. The living and dying cycle is not one that they were originally equipped for, and it takes a severe mental toll.
AA: I would guess that their madness is similar to that of the Heralds—too many cycles of dying, returning to Braize, returning to fight, and dying again. The major difference in the past is that these were the torturers and the Heralds were the torturees, but I can readily believe that spending centuries torturing someone would also drive you into madness.
But… Demid…
She put him out of her mind, like Eshonai before him. This was the path she had placed herself on from the moment she’d first listened to Ulim years ago, deciding that she would risk the return of her people’s gods.
AA: Okay, yeah, no sympathy now. She decided, years ago, that she would turn away from thousands of years worth of her people’s commitment to remaining free of these “old gods,” which turn out to be their insane ancestors. She decided, on behalf of a whole lot of people who wouldn’t have concurred with her decision, that they should go back to the old bondage that they’d escaped at such cost. They had chosen to be free, even if it meant living in dullform for centuries, and spending more centuries slowly learning to reclaim a few of the forms that were natural to their people. She wanted power, instead, and she was willing to pay for it with the lives of her people—including her sister and her mate.
L: Yeah, no sympathy from me. If she’d allowed her people to make their own choices? Maybe. But as it stands, she removed their choice and led them down the path to death and enslavement.
AP: Argh… I just can’t give up on characters that easily! I’m a sucker for a motivationally gray character. And Venli certainly fits the bill.
L: True, I don’t think she’s beyond redemption—not yet, anyway.
AA: Well, by the end of the book I’m rooting for her all the way. I think she’s got potential for actual repentance for her choices on behalf of her people, and it sure looks like that’s the path Sanderson is building for her. But at this point, I have no sympathy. She set this all up, thinking she knew better than everyone else, and now her friends are the ones being destroyed by it.
AA: Incidentally, I have developed a strong suspicion that the forms the listeners were developing—mateform, nimbleform, workform, warform—were among dozens of forms that the parsh people had available to them when the planet was theirs. (Well, only shared with the Aimians, anyway.) I’d bet those forms were theirs even before the arrival of Honor and Cultivation, though I suppose it’s possible that they developed a few additional forms after that event. The same goes for the Rhythms: It’s a pretty solid bet that the Rhythms the listeners attuned in the pre-stormform parts of Words of Radiance were those natural to the planet, as were the forms they wore. The “new Rhythms” as well as the “forms of power” all seem to belong to Odium.
AP: I agree wholeheartedly with this assessment. I think Odium took the natural abilities of the original Rosharans and twisted them.
AA: And since I’m pontificating here, I’d also say that the names of the Rhythms point out the false premise of Odium’s claim a few weeks ago, that all emotions belong to him. If you look at the list of “old” Rhythms, there’s all sorts of emotion. Curiosity, awe, anxiety, mourning, peace, appreciation, and so on. The “new” Rhythms could almost be described as the corrupted versions of those same emotions: Conceit vs. Confidence; Ridicule vs. Amusement; Craving vs. Anticipation. I don’t know/claim that those pairs are supposed to be directly analogous, but you can see what I’m driving at. The new Rhythms all have a negative edge to them, and I think it’s a reflection of the way Odium affects everything he touches.
AP: I think you’re on the right track. I’ve been using “extreme”, rather than “negative”. But extreme emotions typically have a negative connotation, so I think we may be saying essentially the same thing.
AA: I’ve been searching for a common thread that makes me see them as negative, and the closest I’ve come so far is “egocentric.” They’re what happens when your emotions are solely about yourself, regardless of the impact on anyone else.
And Odium himself, god of gods, had a purpose for her.
AA: I’m just popping this in here to comment on “god of gods.” It suddenly makes sense in a very different way than I’d thought about before. For the parsh, their “gods” have for millennia been those ancestors who returned to lead them in battle during each Desolation. Odium is, quite literally, the god of their gods.
Flora & Fauna
You have to want it, or the powers will not be able to take a place in your gemhearts.
AA: This is the first solid confirmation in the books that the parsh have gemhearts, and that’s how they change forms. We readers have speculated that since they were native to Roshar, they ought to, but any questions on the subject only got a RAFO. The first in-world hint we had was Venli’s thought, in her first Interlude, that the old songs spoke of humans hacking apart corpses searching for gemhearts, but that didn’t mention whether there was anything to be found. Now we know.
For those who don’t follow the extra-textual stuff, and might be wondering why the parshmen weren’t essentially “farmed” for gemhearts, there’s a reason. Sanderson has stated that their gemhearts look much different than other creatures we’ve seen, so it was easy for the knowledge that they have gemhearts to be lost. They basically look like bone, rather than the emeralds, heliodor, and amethyst we’ve seen before.
Cosmere Connections
Question for discussion in the comments: Is Odium—the Shard, the Intent, the concept—the ultimate in selfishness?
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
As she waited, she noted something hovering near the ground a short distance away. A little spren that looked like a ball of light. Yes… she’d seen one of those near Eshonai. What was it?
AA: Venli had seen, not merely “one of those” near Eshonai, but this very one. This is the spren that had begun to form a bond with Eshonai, but the nascent bond was destroyed when she took on stormform instead. Keep an eye on this little spren; she’ll be very important later on, and not nearly so shy!
L: It sounds weird, but I find this little spren to be adorable. More on that later…
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The Ruin of Kings
AP: I share your feelings of adorable-ness!
She instantly knew something—an instinctive truth, as sure as the storms and the sun. If the creatures standing nearby saw this spren, they would destroy it.
She slapped her hand down over the spren as the creature wearing Demid’s body turned toward her. She cupped the little spren against the stone, and attuned Abashment.
AA: Okay, there’s the second good thing she’s done in this chapter. (The first was trying to get Demid back so he’d have a choice about what was done to him. It didn’t go anywhere, but at least she tried.) I have no idea what motivated her to save the little spren, but it may well be the first time I had any real liking for her.
“You speak like a human, spren,” Demid said. “Your service here was grand, but you use their ways, their language. I find that displeasing.”
AP: This stuck out to me. Does Ulim sound human because Odium was originally the god of the humans? Or has he adapted over the past several thousand years without a desolation? Basically, was he always like this, or is this a change? The negative reaction makes me think the latter.
AA: I think this is a change, though I have to say he sounds like he’s been hanging out with Lift more than with the listeners or the Alethi! Maybe he got loose a few centuries ago and has been lurking in the streets of the western cities to pick up his attitude and language patterns.
Quality Quotations
“Ready yourself to be carried,” he said. “We must travel to Alethela.”
Dun dun DUN!
Housekeeping note: There will be no reread next week due to the Christmas break. Rejoin us in the new year to start in on Part Three! The current plan is to tackle both 58 and 59, so buckle up and be ready for a long read.
Meanwhile, I wish you all a very merry Christmas and a happy new year!
Alice is happy to be enjoying her Christmas break, and is using it to make large quantities of peanut brittle. She hopes you all enjoyed the new State of the Sanderson post yesterday.
Lyndsey is trying to resist being taken by sickform at the moment. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
Aubree hopes that your Koloss is well fed and starting to fill out its skin! Happy Koloss Head Munching Day!
Of all the evil stuff you can do, destroying someone’s soul in a universe with a confirmed afterlife is pretty high on the list. Even our various mass murderer protagonists at least let their enemies move on to the spiritual realm.
@1 – Did it mean that the process destroyed the soul? I took it to mean that the soul already passed into the Beyond.
@1 soursavior
Afterlife is not confirmed. No one, not even the shards know what lies “beyond”. Sanderson has confirmed he wants to leave it a question with no definitive answer like in real life
Questioner
Will Kelsier reunite with the crew in the Beyond?
Brandon Sanderson
Well, I don’t talk about the Beyond. I would like to think that he would. But I don’t talk about what happens there, even Sazed doesn’t know what happens there. So, if you want to imagine it, then yes, but he would have to get there first.
JWMeep
A question about Goradel. His end was very tragic, and was one of the things that had me in tears. The thing that really twisted the knife into me, is that he died that horrible death thinking that he had failed. When everything he tried to survive failed, his final act was to try to prevent the message into falling into Ruin’s hands, but even that was futile. With those who seem to be active in the great beyond, did Goradel ever find out about what his actions helped to bring about? Was he ever thanked for his actions?
Brandon Sanderson
Well… I don’t want to speak too much about the great beyond in the books, as in my opinion that level of cosmology is influenced by your own beliefs in the hereafter and in deity. Beyond that, I would rather not speak of what happens to the souls beyond the three Realms, as even Sazed doesn’t know that.
Perhaps this will help, however. Like most of the leaders of soldiers in this series (Demoux, Wells, and Conrad included,) Goradel is based on and looks like one of my friends. In this case, it’s Richard Gordon. He’s read the book and cheered for his namesake’s sacrifice and eventual victory. So the REAL Goradel knows. ;)
Alice, wasn’t “the group Sanderson was referring to that made it out of the Shattered Plains “to some floodplains on the other side” referring to the refuseniks and Thude’s division?
I am also wondering about the source of bodies for the Fused who appeared tpreviously, because the newly awakened parsh as seen through Kaladin’s and Moash’s PoVs didn’t seem to be in the proper mental space to let the Fused souls in, nor would they have been able to attune necessary rythms, etc. Maybe this requirement was somehow suspended during the very first Everstorm? And now they are cannibalizing the remaining listeners until they have the parsh prepped and groomed. Which would mean that the remaining stormforms have a very, very slim chance of survival and escape, if somebody finds them and tells them what’s going on before they are all “used up”. The Last Legion had been able to throw off voidforms and escape once before, after all. The Fused didn’t chose to eliminate the scholars first by chance, methinks.
Also, didn’t Moash see some other “Regals”? Did some of the parsh just get picked out randomly for this elevation?
I also disagree that Venli’s new voidspren is comparable to a Bondsmith spren. It is mindless, for one thing, and for another it bestows only a very specialized form of Connection, limited to language translation.
And, yes, Venli had apparently been quite an unpleasant person, who wasn’t changed all that much by taking in a voidspren. She was also the one demanding the immediate execution of refuseniks – including their own mother! – that poor mind-controlled Eshonai had been still able to circumvent.
Soursavoir @1:
I don’t believe that the souls evicted by the Fused are actually destroyed – they just move on as normal when someone dies
@2, 3, and 4. Them being in the beyond and the beyond being inaccessible to Odium makes sense as an alternative and seems much less brutal. I interpreted things the way I did because in Mistborn 1, Harmony suggests that two main characters have gone on to the beyond, that he could bring them back, and that he is choosing not to because of their wishes. I suppose Harmony could equally have meant that he’d stabilized their cognitive shadows, in which case the beyond is still inaccessible to shards and these Listeners’ souls haven’t necessarily been destroyed.
For my own comments, I appreciate the running tally of the Rhythms. Adds that just little bit more depth to Sanderson’s already amazing world building. That’s why I come to these re-reads. To find out little tidbits I never noticed before. Thank you!
As to what happens to the parsh when the fused take over the body I whole heartily agree is murder. They are lied to, and manipulated into sacrificing their own lives. I would hazard that if they didn’t need the parsh to be open to the change for it to happen, that the fused would just take the bodies by force. It is in a twisted way kind of funny that the real way to end the war is to convince all the current living parsh to just say “no”.
Almost a unanimous and immediate sentiment of hope and acceptance for a Venli redemption arc, but still highly divided on the Moash redemption. These two characters are on very similar paths, in my opinion, and have similar motivations, actions, and consequences.
@@.-@ Isilel
I agree on all points
@5 soursavior
Brandon has kinda wiffle waffled on the subject because of Harmony’s comment, but he does steadily since then in WoB state how he wants to leave the god beyond, and the beyond as ambiguous. Here is one of his replies regarding Harmony shown below
Questioner
Is there a way for any of the Shards to circumvent the Cognitive Realm and resurrect somebody?
Brandon Sanderson
…So, resurrection in the cosmere is– depends on if– where your mind is, and the status of your body, and whether your mind and soul have kind of combined and passed on. If you get to them before that happens, then you can re-attach the soul to the body. And you see that happening in Warbreaker quite often.
Bystanders
The Returned.
Brandon Sanderson
The Returned, yeah. You just gotta get the soul before it passes on. Once it passes on nobody knows where it goes.
clyguy
Now Harmony tells Spook that Kelsier and Vin say hi. So is he able to reach into wherever they are?
Brandon Sanderson
He doesn’t say that they say hi, he says–
Bystanders
They’re doing well.
Brandon Sanderson
They’re doing well.
clyguy
Can he see them or communicate with them at all?
Brandon Sanderson
He has interacted with them at some point.
So I take that to mean Brandon is dancing around a little bit. Sazed did in fact speak with Vin and Elend before they left for the beyond, and Vin and Elend did tell Sazed they wanted to go and they will be ok. Hence the “at some point”. I think this is under the same umbrella as cognitive shadows. He wants to leave the exact nature somewhat ambiguous, by saying what the “in world” philosophers would say. Another WoB shown below
Questioner
In Stormlight, Dalinar mentioned the God *inaudible* And throughout the cosmere, gods *inaudible*. Is there an omniscient, omnipotent, actual God in the cosmere?
Brandon Sanderson
Is there an omniscient, omnipotent God in the cosmere? Some people believe that there is. You guys laugh about this, but I don’t mean it to be a laughing thing. There are certain questions I will not answer in the cosmere, specificlaly because it will too much underline some of the characters’ beliefs. And I want to characters respectfully. So whether there is life after you pass into the Beyond, and whether there is a God of gods, an onnipotent, as we would define “monotheistic God,” are questions that I don’t answer, and I let the characters deal with. Because if I answer that, then the character discussions about this are meaningless. Not really, but they kind of are. So there are a couple things I won’t answer about the Cosmere, because the characters don’t have these answers.
Questioner
<Do you know the answer>?
Brandon Sanderson
I know the answer, yes.
Have others seen Timbre before? Elhokar saw a similarly refracted light spot in mirrors. So did The Stump.
Sylphrena saw red tainted spren in Words of Radiance in the warcamps. Perhaps more voidspren seeking gemhearts of Parshmen at the advent of the Everstorm.
I disliked Venli in book 2. Now, I am so pleased with her character arc so far. It’s nearly an inverse of Renarin’s tainted Nahel bond of the Truthwatcher order of the Light Knights. Fantastic reread.
Edit: Earlier in Oathbringer someone spoke about the tricky mental attacks of the Princes of the Parshendi, the Lieutenants of the Listeners or something close to that. Do you suppose Demid’s body now has the soul of one of these Princes?
@9 tabitreader
That is something that really impressed me about Oathbringer. That Brandon can take two characters a lot of people either disliked or outright hated (Venli and Elhokar), and turned it all around to cheering for both characters, and even mourning the loss of one of them. It really was amazing to see.
In my first read-through, I thought that the little white spren was Eshonai’s soul, forced out of her body by the Fused that took it over, which is why she had seen it around Eshonai’s body.
Part of that was because I glanced over the part about Stormform not changing who you are, but if that’s the case, what was that little voice screaming in Eshonai’s head after she first gained that form? I took that as being her true self, eventually forced out of her body and adopted by Venli.
@9: I think that the Cryptic Elhokar was seeing (remember he talked about the Symbol-headed men in TWoK), is the one that Hoid eventually adopts at the end of this book.
The Stump had the Surge of Regrowth, but was not an Edgedancer, so must have been a Truthwatcher, with the same type of spren Renarin has, though not corrupted.
@LazerWulf, what makes you think the Stump is not an Edgedancer? She spends all her on-screen time remembering those who have been forgotten–orphans and abandoned children.
@12 Carl
Because it looks like Ym’s spren which is a truthwatcher spren, because Brandon confirmed it was a truthwatcher spren, and because Jasnah refers to it when talking to her versitilian friends when comparing it to what Renarin’s spren should look like. Sorry if this comes off terse, multitasking at the moment lol
@12: She’s been confirmed to be a Truthwatcher: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Stump
Remembering those that have been forgotten, to an Edgedancer, seems to be more in the sense of getting justice for them, rather than taking care of them. In that sense, Stump was more like Ym, another who was on the path to being a Truthwatcher before Nale killed him.
@12 Carl: Stump’s spren had the same description as the one who was bonding with Ym. Further, it’s not the same description as an Edgedancer’s spren, i.e. Lift’s. And since Brandon has confirmed that Ym would have been a Truthwatcher, it can be assumed Stump is a Truthwatcher as well.
Haha @13,14: I guess I should check for new comments after reading through!
How come the Gods whocame back to Roshar in Interlude 6 did not make an appearance at the Battle of Thaylen City. If they were not on the battlefield where were the Listner Gods. If they had somewhere else to be that could cause problems for Team Dalinar and his merry band of KRs.
Alice, I think you are right to connect Battar with Venli’s role as the Envoy. Elsecallers (of which Battar is the Herald associated with that Order) claim to be the Order most attuned with Shadesmear. They sees themselves as the key diplomats between Shadesmar and Roshar.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
soursavior @1 – I’m with Austin on this; I assumed that they were just killed and their souls sent Beyond. The text just says “the blindness beyond” which I assume is the same as what Kelsier saw. As for an afterlife, while (as others have noted) there’s no confirmation in a state of eternal life, there is confirmed in-text to be at least a few moments of afterlife. So… I don’t really know. I’m of the belief that there is one, but we’re never going to be told either that there is, or what it’s like if there is.
Isilel @@.-@ – We don’t know which group Sanderson was referring to. The question was unspecific, so we don’t know what the answer means, and I haven’t yet been able to get clarification out of anyone at Dragonsteel. Peter didn’t know, and Brandon was still on tour at the time. I forgot to ask again when they were both at home, and now Peter is on vacation. When I get a straight answer, I’ll make sure it gets posted here and is appended to the Arcanum question.
About the source of the first Fused we see, I can only assume they were freed slaves, and they had to make do with that. I don’t think hearing the Rhythms was required – just a receptive mind. It may be that some of the more scholarly countries had parshmen who were … more “awake,” having been accustomed to more intellectual surroundings instead of solely being used as menial labor, but that’s sheer speculation. The Regals are not Fused; they’re just people on Venli’s level who have bonds with certain kinds of Voidspren, and they’re not mentioned as such until much later. I don’t think we know for sure what Moash has seen up to this time. (Remember that he hasn’t yet arrived at Kholinar at this point.)
We don’t know all that much about Venli’s Voidspren. Timbre is able to outsmart it later, but having Hariel refer to it as “a mindless Voidspren” isn’t what I’d call an unbiased opinion. He’s a pretty arrogant sort, and he’s definitely distinguishing between mere Voidspren and the souls of the ancestors like himself. It’s certainly not on the level of the Bondsmith spren we’ve seen, but the two we’ve observed are also deeply connected to Shards. It may be that Venli’s type can access similar Surges without being nearly so self-aware or intelligent.
scath @8 – Ummm… ::giggle:: That would be Kelsier, not Szeth, but the mental image is pretty funny.
@@.-@ Isilel
I agree that the 2000 Venli is referencing are the survivors of the fight with the Alethi when they made the Everstorm. Venli has no knowledge of the escaped Listeners (which is the group Brandon was referring to as having made it safely out). – Though @18 obviously you could be correct and they are different. That is just how I understood it.
To the question posed in the post:
I am not sure what I believe about Odium. I do buy that he isn’t just hatred. Dalinar’s experience with Odium a few chapters ago seemed to show that while hatred was the dominant emotion from Odium, there were others – and very extreme. So the corrupted/extreme emotion bit could be more accurate. Hmm, I think I like the idea of Odium being emotion tainted with extreme self-centeredness. I don’t know… I think I’ll have RAFO.
Venli realizing she had lost Demid was the first scene that made me feel sorry for her. Even her sister’s death could be seen as just an accident of war, but Demid’s death was clearly a result of what Venli has put in place in the world. Here she begins to see the real cost of her actions.
I agree with the idea that constant death and rebirth of the Heralds and the Fused is the likely cause of their madness. I wonder if all of them (on both sides) actually dying would stop Odium.
@14 LazerWulf and 15,16 Austin
LOL, great minds think alike
@17 AndrewHB
My theory is that Odium felt he had the whole situation in the bag, that he didn’t need them. He even told the parshmen he had on hand to stay back and watch because he had everything set up. Had Dalinar not refused (like Odium was so sure he would do), then Odium would have had an army of Alethi, lead by the Blackthorn against a ram shackle gather of Thaylan forces. There would be no reinforcements from Urithiru because Malata let in the voidbringers to attack, and finally Kaladin, Shallan, and Adolin (as far as Odium knew) were either killed with the loss of Kholinar, or the fused got to them in the cognitive realm. So pretty much an absolute victory on every single front. He probably figured the thunderclasts were over doing it, and only used them as a “just in case” regarding the perfect ruby. I think going forward he will not make the same mistake twice.
@18 Wetlandernw
LOL touche regarding Szeth and Kelsier. excellent catch. I have updated it lol
Great reread, as always. I go back and forth on whether I like Venli-which makes her a good character. I don’t much like her in this chapter, and feel a small bit of satisfaction that some of her illusions are being shattered. Not that the loss of Demid and the others is a good way for that to happen, but hey. If you devote your life to bringing back evil gods, you get less friends and more evil gods when you succeed. The interaction with Timbre shows she’s not all bad, and I am excited for her redemption arc, hopefully pulling some of her people with her away from Odium
I’m almost afraid to voice my opinion regarding Venli’s redemption considering how these discussions typically devolve on here but I’ll give it a shot. While I do not much like Venli I do support her efforts at redemption. When the bill for all her treachery against her people comes due she begins her journey to fix it. Her ultimate crime was ignorance and conceit. She did think she was bringing glory to her people. That she wanted to be seen doing so is undeniable but who doesn’t want a pat on the back for a job well done? She didn’t listen to her people’s ancient lore, but neither did the Girl Who Looked Up. Maybe she’ll backslide in Stormlight 4 but for now she’s doing well. She is perfectly placed to serve as Honor’s double agent. She’s Tanavast’s Odium much like Wax is Sazed’s Ruin.
As for the events of the Interlude, I agree with everyone and pronounce what the Fused do as murder. I don’t think the souls of the displaced are destroyed, they are described as being pushed out. Does anyone think that any of the displaced get the opportunity to become new, less insane Fused? Obviously it’s in Odium’s purview to yank whomever he wants out of the line for the Beyond. Equally obvious, at least to me, Odium’s main troops are probably close to the limit of their usefulness; they need new blood.
@7
Venli can suck it. She sold out her people because she wanted power, and I see the beginning of her “redemption arc” happening more because she didn’t get what she thought she was going to (power, authority, prestige, etc), and not because she’s actually seen the error of her ways or feels any real remorse. For me she’s in the exact same spot as Moash, and her arc will have to be amazingly convincing for me to care.
In other news, I looked up the definition of Odium, and there’s an interesting thing. It’s hatred, yes, but it’s directed hatred because of something done. I’m probably going to have to think on this concept some more to get my thoughts clear, but at first blush, it seems like Odium is the dood who does WTF he wants, knowing he’ll be hated, and so he just embraces it. It’s a way to get out of responsibility. It’s why he tells Dalinar to blame it all on him, cuz the hate makes sense. Gah…I feel something’s there, but I can’t articulate it just yet.
I read the book first then listened to the Audible- I got a little twitchy when Timbre was pronounced /timbr/. I assumed it was the more musical /tambr/.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/timbre
@24 I have to agree with you about Venli. She has done a lot of terrible stuff for her own gain, and she has a long way to go towards redemption.
@23: let the discussion devolve.
Venli >>> Moash.
I think that is the purpose of book four being Eshonai’s/Venli’s. We will begin to get to know her more as a “person”. Delve deeper into her motivations. Her positive traits and her negative ones. Perhaps seeing her “fall” from the beginning will give us more insights into why she did what she did, giving more of a sense about her redemption.
@23 EvilMonkey
If Moash is any indication, I think Odium is always willing and open to adding new soldiers to his ranks, regardless the source.
Odium takes all commers when it comes to troops, I agree. But with Dalinar out of the running and King T being more planner than fighter, the Fused form his primary battlefield commanders. They are largely unstable. For every Leshwi there’s 3 or 4 drooling wonders. Maybe there’s a few remnants of Sadeas army with potential but the fight is essentially a world war. Team O has what essentially amounts to unlimited soldiers but Team Honor knows where to put troops to best effect. You can have as many soldiers as you want. They don’t do much good if they’re at the wrong places.
Both Venli and Moash figured fairly quickly that they got a raw deal when they switched to Team O. The difference is Moash doubles down. Venli not only tries to atone but is in a position to actually be useful.
I think I mostly agree with EvilMonkey on Venli and Moash, except that I don’t think Moash sees Team Odium giving him a raw deal. That’s not the point of this interlude though so we can save the Moash discussion for another time. I truly dislike Venli, and despise her for Eshonai’s fate, but I find myself drawn to her story in OB and think her joining Team Honor would be one of Dalinar’s greatest early successes as bondsmith and current leader of Team Honor as we know it. I like how we see a little spark of Venli’s “humanity” here in her treatment of Timbre. This interlude is a powerful turning point in her story since she begins the chapter as old despicable Venli, thinking the deaths of her loved ones is a fair price to pay for her dreams to come true, but ends it saving a mysterious spren for no apparent reason. It’s a sweet moment that showed me perhaps she could be more, although I am still not completely sure she’s trustworthy.
I think, in retrospect, I denied that Stump is a Truthwatcher for one reason: she spends the entirety of Lift’s novella misunderstanding almost literally everything she sees. You’re all correct, and I had read exactly the stuff you cite, but my mind just edited it out.
As with Moash, I’m amused to see people condemning Venli as unredeemable (or nearly so) while not hating on the Blackthorn, or patricide/matricide Shallan, or genocidal Jasnah. Is it just that we meet Venli during, rather than after, her period of villainy?
@@@@@ Carl
I promise that there are plenty of people on here condemning the Blackthorn, Shallan and Jasnah. Dalinar gets love despite his horrible past because of where we met him first, true, but even at his very worst he has moments of Honor that string you along. The recruitment of Teleb, sparing young Tanalan, foiling the assassination attempt on Gavilar, resisting the Thrill when it urged him to murder his big bro, seeking out his own redemption despite no pressure from his peers to do so. Shallan gets a pass because she is mentally unstable and grew up in an abusive household. Still, while many excuse her for her killings there are just as many who don’t like her even if they find her blameless. As for Jasnah, well, she suggested genocide. Talk about redemption if she actually becomes Cosmere Hitler.
All that being said, first impressions definitely matter when we read these characters. It is certainly possible if we had met Dalinar in his Blackthorn incarnation first, we’d be giving his every moment of awesome the side-eye. But the thing you gotta remember is that he has had those moments of awesome. We’ve seen Shallan do incredible, good guy things. We’ve seen Jasnah be badass numerous times. Meanwhile all we’ve seen of Moash is betrayal after betrayal. We’ve seen Venli take steps but our first visual of her was so awful that she hasn’t built up enough goodwill to convince many readers of her sincerity. We must see it for it to have a chance to sway us. It may not sway us even after we see it but without seeing it there is no chance at all.
@EvilMonkey, actually we do see Moash showing good impulses, notably by saving the very same restored Parshmen that Kaladin had also championed and taught earlier in the very same novel. Venli is actually worst of all the characters I listed in my own opinion, because we get her viewpoints and she was at least as selfish as Blackthorn-era Dalinar, thinking mostly about herself and what she wants and ignoring anyone else’s judgment. In fact, she and Gavilar are probably mirror-images. Both of them released ancient servants of Odium to help their people and bring back the (insane) spirits that once led their people, after all … and despite how crazy that sounds, both succeeded.
@29 EvilMonkey
I am sorry if I was not more clear. What I meant was considering Odium is open to all comers, as evidenced by Moash, Amaram, and Sadeas’s army, then I would imagine that Odium would be perfectly happy creating new fused amongst the current parsh if they distinguish themselves. I couldn’t see Odium not bringing in new ranks that way. As far as Odium is concerned, he does not care the shape or origin of the tool, so long as it works. Which is exactly what he said to the fused that was pissed about following Dalinar. So basically I agree, I could see Odium creating new fused to replace the ones too crazy to do anything.
@32 EvilMonkey
Yeah, I still say Jasnah is unjustly getting a bad rap for that scene and that she didn’t suggest genocide. She was saying the heralds were their best option, because the alternative is horrible. But I went into all that ad nauseum back on the re-read of chapters 39 and 40, so I will not digress by rehashing that here. If you would like to continue the discussion, I would be happy to on that chapter’s page. Otherwise I guess to each their own.
@33 Carl
One could argue Moash helping the Parsh was to self validate his blame on humanity, and reinforce his actions were not his own fault. He needed the parsh to be better, to support his world view. But I will not digress into that. To keep on topic with Venli, I think it is too early to condemn her (not saying I was condemning Moash either. I would rather get to know the characters better than hate them). I prefer to reserve my judgement till book 4 comes out, where we will learn more about her motivations, and what drove her to make these decisions. Can’t wait to read more! :)
In Words of Radiance Venli scoffs at the idea of a diplomat form being useful and then Odium makes her an envoy, which is a synonym for diplomat. Haha
“What?” Eshonai stood up straight “You were to be working on a form to help! A form of diplomats, or for scholars.”
“Those will not save us,” Venli said to Amusment – WoR I-1 Narak
I think Venli deserves Pity more than Hatred. Yes, she has her moments of hubris, but consider, the majority of her people had been lobotomized and enslaved during the False Desolation, and the remainder were slowly dying out due to the War on the Shattered Plains. She was willing to do anything to keep her people from extinction, even disregard the warnings of the Songs of her Ancestors. And the fact of the matter is, she succeeded. Because of her actions, the Parshmen had their Songs returned to them, and the War on the Shattered Planes is essentially over, though only because the True Desolation has come. Now she’s getting a heavy dose of the Law of Unintended Consequences. I’m not going to be one of the ones who say she’s getting what she deserves, because nobody deserves this. True, she’s got a long way to go on her Path to Redepmtion, but, unlike Moash, she’s actually willing to try.
EvilMonkey @23 – It will be interesting, going forward, to compare the Moash and Venli arcs. I haven’t really considered deeply why I feel this way, but as things stand at the end of the book, I see Venli moving toward redemption and Moash moving toward further condemnation. I suspect that part of it is this: however much I hate Venli’s past actions, she at least claims them as her own. For the rest of this book, we see her realization that not only is she not as highly-positioned as she expected to be, but her people are not treated anything like she thought they would be. The more she realizes that they are just tools for some seriously twisted ancestors and a god she doesn’t trust, the more she questions the validity of her past choices, and the more she moves toward making better ones. By the end of the book, she’s using her craftiness in something that I, at least, see as a better cause.
As for the possibility of adding new members to the Odium side of the Oathpact… I don’t know if he can, or if he wants to. I’m reasonably sure that if he can/does, we’ll see it in the next book!
Lorijo @25 – I just heard about that Audible pronunciation the other day, and found it… disturbing. Clearly the meaning Sanderson was going for was the musical term, given the spelling and the context – so why not pronounce it that way?
EvilMonkey @32 – Well stated. I think that just about sums it up!
LazerWulf @36 – I think one of the biggest reasons I didn’t pity Venli at this juncture is that there’s no indication that “She was willing to do anything to keep her people from extinction, even disregard the warnings of the Songs of her Ancestors.” She has never thought about her past decisions in terms of saving her people, no matter what she pretended to Eshonai. She admits in her POV that she simply wanted power, and she didn’t consult with the leadership or anyone except the small group under her direct influence. She personally made a choice to try to bring back the old gods, even knowing that most of her people would rather have died than be made slaves to the old gods again. She didn’t do it for their sake, but for her own.
@25 and 37
Well, lets be honest, the musical pronunciation of timbre makes no sense. At all. In what other words does an “I” make the “a as in apple” sound? Further, the dictionary lists tim-ber as being a proper pronunciation; it can be done both ways and be considered “correct”.
@37: I see your point, but, still, that’s the hubris talking. Maybe I am inferring some of her motives from her conversations with Eshonai (such as the one @35 quoted), but I still don’t think her motives were entirely selfish (just mostly).
I personally cannot wait until Team Dragonsteel works out the quantification of Investiture as I think this will really help our understanding of the Cosmere going forward. Alice @37 brings up a good point regarding Odium’s willingness or ability to create more Fused. If we know anything about Odium, we know he is reluctant to Invest as he doesn’t really want to be tied down to one system. He kinda got trapped in Roshar and so he is putting the minimum amount of his power into those he influences, just enough to break those he fights with. So far the strategy has borne fruit; one adversary is shattered, the other withdrawn. The question is, how much Investiture does it take to create a Fused, or a group of them? How many would he need to create in order to pass the Investment threshold and thus leave him permanently trapped in system? If he left, exactly how much of his power gets left behind?
@41: You’ve also got to remember that the unmade are Splinters of Odium https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100-rbooks-ama-2015/#e1672
@whitespine, you could equally say that the spelling of timbre makes no sense, given it is pronounced “tamber”. The real problem is that the French word was adopted back in the day when all educated people spoke French and knew how to say it. Now the pronunciation is shifting to be phonetically like the spelling if it were an English word. We don’t pronounce racquet as “rah kay” as the French would, or as the English did when they first started playing tennis (which is not pronounced “teh nee” either).
Note: I haven’t actually looked up the etymology of timbre, this is just a guess.
Virtually anyone with musical training, and many with less training but basic musical literacy, will immediately recognize “timbre” and assume the “tambr” pronunciation. Particularly, this fits so well with the Listeners & Singers and their Rhythms and songs, it’s a lovely connection.
@43
The problem, then, is that there are a lot of people (myself included) who don’t have musical training and never realized that is how the word is spelled. I look at it and read it as a British spelling of the word related to lumber/wood. Music never crossed my mind (although, now that you and others point it out, it makes sense).
I’m in between. I knew it as a musical term, but from reading–I have no musical training, I’m just a voracious reader. I therefore recognized it but mentally pronounced it as “timber”.
If the Listeners hadn’t previously experienced fury, terror, agony, craving, and suchlike emotions, they’ve been luckier than humans.
@AeronaGreenjoy, if they hadn’t experienced those emotions, they would not have words for them. I presume that they can experience emotions they don’t have Rhythms for.
@47: I’ve wondered if they have a Rhythm for every emotion they experience. Have we read anything about that?
@40 EvilMonkey
Just sticking around on a planet a certain amount of time results in a shard investing in it. So Odium is invested in the planet he is on. That makes it difficult to leave, but not impossible. It just takes time to pull your power back that is invested in a planet so as not to lose any of it. That said, something else is holding him to that system. As to Odium not wanting to overly invest individuals with his power, I feel (this portion is my opinion) is more he likes to be in control and if he gives up too much of his power to his minions, he becomes subject to their ability to accomplish his goals, whereas he seems to take more of a hands on approach of “I’d rather do it myself”.
@41 LazerWulf
True, true.
@46, 48 AeronaGreenjoy and 47 Carl
Rhythms can apply to multiple emotions, and they have had all those emotions. WoB below
yulerule
The parshendi didn’t have the emotions like Contempt, Ridicule [etc. before the Everstorm?]
Brandon Sanderson
They did have those emotions, but they didn’t match them to the Rhythms the same way. A wide variety of emotions can be matched to a rhythm. It doesn’t mean they didn’t have those emotions.
yulerule
So you are saying that, like Ridicule is a new version of Amusement, they could have used ridicule but say it to Amusement? […]
Brandon Sanderson
Yes.
yulerule
And that’s a harsher form, Ridicule?
Brandon Sanderson
That is just how the rhythms are named. I’ll leave it to your interpretation whether they are harsher or not. A rhythm is just a beat. Whether it is harsh or not depends on the interpretation of the person listening to it. But yes, you could have ridiculed people to Amusement before.
yulerule
But you have new rhythms.
Brandon Sanderson
You have new rhythms which have a different feel to them.
@49: Thank you. I looked on the Coopermind Wiki, but didn’t seek out any WoB elsewhere.
Presumably the reason Odium wants all life on Roshar exterminated when he leaves is so he can pull up stakes with all of his power intact. So maybe with an Investiture quantification we also need quantification with respect to time. How long does a Shard have to be in system before their Investiture reaches enough critical mass to fuel a magic system? Does the power level have to be at Shard quantities to produce the effect or could a long-lived Splinter achieve the same effect? Say pre-Ascension Stormfather made it to the Drominad System. How long would it take for Aviars to start drinking Stormlight?
@50 AeronaGreenjoy
No problemo, always happy to help answer questions and share info.
@51 EvilMonkey
So it may take a bit to find all the WoB, because the wording on some is tricky, but to answer your questions, this is what we know so far (to clarify, anytime I say I think, that is my opinion). I think Odium is mainly concerned with Cultivation because pulling away from Roshar could mean leaving himself vulnerable to attack during the process and he doesn’t want a prior enemy at his back. I do not believe he needs to exterminate the people on Roshar, but I think by killing Cultivation, it would upset a lot of the ecology on Roshar that got used to her presence, which is why it would damage/screw up Roshar a bit in the process. Just look at Sel. I believe from the context of the WoBs, a shard just has to hang out for a bit to become invested in a planet, but in order to affect the magic system, it has to do a little something extra. So there is a WoB I found a while back that I had trouble finding, so I will probably have trouble finding it again, but it gives the implication that the type of magic arises from an interaction between the shard and the planet. Though I could be mis-remembering so I will need to do some digging. If that is true, then using your example, it would not work that way. If the stormfather could invest in a planet and cause a magic system, then it would not function like it does on Roshar, because it is a different planet. I do not believe a splinter can cause a magic system, because Pajit, an avatar of autonomy, is hanging out dromeanid (confirmed), and Brandon has said it is not “invested” sorta by a shard. That Wob is long and can be confusing. I will be happy to post it, but to save confusion, just to sum up, All shards have all access to all investiture associated with their shard regardless if they have ever been to the planet, because all things are made of some part of them. So there is “power of autonomy” throughout the cosmere. Just the vessels are semi limited in their understanding of their power, so they have to consciously realize the power is there, for it to be within their power, even though it was always there. My own example is I guess its like a new born baby learning to crawl/walk. Its arms and legs have always been there, the baby just needs to realize it, and learn how to use them. So pajit the avatar of autonomy is the result of autonomy realizing some of its power is there and giving it sapience. Yet Brandon has confirmed the ecology of the planet (mindhunting animals) is not due to the avatar but because of the natural investiture already there. Does this mean it is impossible? I don’t know. I know you were just using the stormfather as a “just for instance” but to continue in that vein since he is a splinter, he is connected to Roshar and it is very hard for him to get off planet, though Zahel/Vasher prove it is possible. Posted the WoB I have found so far below
Argent
Which is a nice segue to Shards Investing into Shardworlds, that I’ve been meaning to ask. So is it kind of a passive– The more a Shard stays on a world–
Brandon Sanderson
Yes.
Argent
–the Investiture kind of seeps–
Brandon Sanderson
It does. Once you’ve got a Perpendicularity, you are starting– That’s trouble for going other places. But you’ve gotta remember, going other places means multiple things to someone actually holding a Shard. They can exist in the Spiritual Realm, where all things are one. And they can even kind of comprehend it…
Argent
Can a Shard choose to just instantly invest in a place?
Brandon Sanderson
Yeah, they just need to start making some stuff.
Questioner
If another Shard came to Scadrial, would that be enough to create a metal like atium, or…?
Brandon Sanderson
If another Shard just came to visit, probably not.
Questioner
If they brought a spren or–
Brandon Sanderson
If they came and completely Invested the world, then things might start happening. But there’s some special circumstances, remember. Ruin and Preservation created that planet. Specifically. And so there’s some goofy things that happened because of that. For instance Roshar was not made by Honor, Cultivation, or Odium. That’s one of the big differences about what’s going on there.
Argent
If a Shard wanted to affect another Shard’s magic system, would they need to Invest themselves in the world, or can they just kind of show up and do things?
Brandon Sanderson
“Affect their magic system”? What do you mean by that?
Argent
So for Roshar, let’s say additional Surges or modified Surges. For Scadrial different metals. For Nalthis–
Brandon Sanderson
That would require more than just showing up.
Well, as 2018 makes it’s way out like a one-armed Herdazian, I wanted to say thank you to Lindsey, Alice, and Aubree for leading such a fun and interesting discussion on this book.
Thanks also to the rest of you here for taking my crazy or ill-informed thoughts seriously and for providing your own cogent analysis.
Happy New Year to all, and I’m looking forward to more of the same in the new year (plus the start of Brandon writing book 4)!
Roger
You are most welcome! We love doing it, and it makes us very happy to know that people are enjoying it with us. New post coming Thursday!
Speaking of Venli vs Moash, am I the only one who would like to see those two interact
@55 BenW
I see it going something to the effect of:
Venli “Been there man. Know that feel”
lol
In another story, Venli might have been the hero – the one who bucked centuries of tradition/superstition to bring enlightenment to her people. As Aubree says, her motivations are grey – she did also have some of her own selfish motivation as well.
I like the idea that Odium has basically corrupted the original, more ‘balanced’ emotions. So he’s basically the Dark Side ;)
@Lisa
I can see it. It reads in my mind like a YA novel. Hell if she found a ship it could be Skyward.
@EvilMonkey, who says Venli won’t find a ship? There is one hint that someone is orbiting Roshar. (The aluminum Azure uses fell from the sky.)